Ep 36 - Breastfeeding Stories … Breastfeeding and Postnatal Depression

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[Jennifer] But I guess the big thing is that I did get better.  It did improve.  The light at the end of the tunnel as I started to come back out of that depression and started finding moments of joy and enjoying things was so reassuring. 

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[Jessica] Welcome to Breastfeeding with ABA, a podcast brought to you by volunteers from the Australian Breastfeeding Association.  Breastfeeding with ABA is a podcast about breastfeeding, made by parents, for parents.  In this episode I'm speaking to Jennifer who is sharing her experience of breastfeeding and postnatal depression.  My name is Jessica and I'm a breastfeeding counsellor with the Australian Breastfeeding Association and my pronouns are she-her. 

[Jennifer] Hi, my name is Jennifer and I'm also a breastfeeding counsellor and breastfeeding educator with the Australian Breastfeeding Association.  My pronouns are she-her.  I'm also the mum to two teenagers and this is my story of my experience with postnatal depression after the birth of my second child. 

[Jessica] This podcast records in different parts of Australia.  We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands we're recording on and the lands you're listening on.  We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to any indigenous people listening.  We also acknowledge the long history of oral storytelling on this country and of women supporting each other to learn to feed their babies. 

[Jennifer] So today we'd like to acknowledge we're sitting on the land, the Dja Dja Wurrung people and pay respects to their elders past and present and I just wanted to add if it's okay, Jess, that something that I find really amazing about, the little bit that I've had the opportunity to learn about the Dja Dja Wurrung is that they're two kind of, I guess, probably the best term is totem animals, although I'm sure there is another term for it.  Bunjil, which is the wedge tailed eagle and Waa the crow, both of whom I can see at times through the windows that we're looking out today. 

[Jessica] So Jennifer, you're talking about your experience today, going through postnatal depression with your second child.  So this was before you were a volunteer and qualified with ABA, is that right? 

[Jennifer] Yeah, I knew about the association but I wasn't a member at the time when all of this started. 

[Jessica] Okay, so sit the scene for me, you're pregnant with baby number two. What's life like at this point for you? 

[Jennifer] So I've got an almost three-year-old very busy little boy who was delighting in my pregnancy and wanting to kind of experience every part when I went into early labour and was rocking my hips as I went for walking every time I stopped during a contraction to rock my hips, he would stop and rock his hips with me.  So we spent a lot of time together and I was very close to him.  I was living probably 20 minutes from my parents with my partner and my little boy in a small community, which is part of Bendigo called Eaglehawk.  I lived near a little lake and I had this sort of lovely little space and was really excited about the arrival of this new little one, didn't know what I was expecting, was just really looking forward to this and was quite well and healthy and managing really well, working, being a mum and I think I stopped work when I was like 37 weeks pregnant or something. 

[Jessica] That's impressive. 

[Jennifer] And I went into labour at just around 38 weeks so I only had a week off the end of work which I'd loved and I wasn't quite ready, I was counting down.  My son was my first child, my son was born at 41 weeks so I was counting down to 41 weeks the whole time and I wasn't anticipating going into labour early at all and so when I started having some signs, my body was approaching before 38 weeks so I was like, oh goodness me, this baby's going to come a bit early and I didn't even have the clothes washed and ready like I had with my first. So I was a little bit of a surprise that this little one was coming a bit earlier but I was super excited and stoked to meet my baby. 

[Jessica] So what were your expectations for what life would be with baby number two? 

[Jennifer] Well I breastfed my first till he was two and then pretty much fell pregnant straightover with number two so I was anticipating breastfeeding my baby.  I was anticipating that my child who turned three just before this baby was born and I would spend a lot of time together with this baby.  My son would go to, we only had daycare one day a week so he had a little bit of an outing but that we would be there and I knew how to do things.  I was feeling really confident about myself.  I was a little bit unsure about how I'd managed two to start with early on with the fatigue and stuff but I'd really felt quite confident as a mum like I'd been here before I knew what to expect.  I had lots of things in place so meals in the fridge already and nappies washed ready to go because we used cloth the nappies at the time and I think I was expecting this bumpy journey in the first maybe five to six weeks with not a lot of sleep and once breastfeeding got going that would be fine. 

[Jessica] So what happened next? 

[Jennifer] My second child, my little girl was born after a very complicated labour and then an emergency caesarean and she was very distressed during the labour.  I had meconium liquor, my waters broke before we went to the hospital.  She didn't cope with the labour at all and when she was born so she was 38 weeks.  She was 2.3 kilos so very tiny, totally unexpected.  She measured normal length 2.3 kilos is 5 pound one in the old money so very small and normal length so she wasn't little in any other way other than that she had no fat atall on her body pretty much.  She looked, I did, I remember the doctor said, oh she's very little compared to what we're expecting and I looked, it showed me my baby over the sort of screen during the emergency caesarean.  I said to the doctor, that's a scun rabbit, not a baby, what happened?  Like I was really shocked, she needed help to breathe which my son hadn't needed any help but very quickly came to my chest and in theatre attached and breastfed was like in fact when she was born she came out of the caesarean wound and was held up and you could see her tongue out and she's like ‘where is the boob?’  Like she was like I've been dreaming like that placenta sucked, I want the boob now and she did, she was ready to park on my breast and breastfeed and she did, she crawled to the breast and pretty unusual at that stage. It wasn't something they often did but it was what I wanted to do and she latched on and she fed right there in theatre and I thought wow this baby unlike my first took a while to get it and know what to do, this is going to be great, just a bit small I'm sure will be right. 

[Jennifer] And then she started struggling so we got back to the ward and she couldn't maintain her temperature and her blood sugar levels were dropping because she didn't have fat stores to cope, I had collected colostrum antenatally because I was, I just, I'd heard about it and I thought it would be useful just in case and I have, I have incompatible blood with my partner so there was a risk that my babies might have really severe jaundice and so it was recommended, so I had about a hundred mls stored that I'd collected 

[Jessica] Wow one hundred mls 

[Jennifer] yeah, overachieving I think that's very unusual but I just 

[Jessica] very unusual that's such a large volume to express antenatally I think the researchsays that's one or two mls to like 30 is huge 

[Jennifer] and I expressed that in like a week so I just was, I think my body was preparing for this little baby and that I was going to need lots of milk for this baby and I was lucky - it was really helpful it meant that she, I was lucky and then she didn't actually need any formula but she was very quickly whisked off to the nursery and they put a drip in and they wanted to keep her in the nursery because she wasn't maintaining a temperature and I so didn't expect that.  So my son didn't leave my arms or his dad's arms for the first and I don’t know, six weeks he was pretty much in our arms or in the cot beside us or in the bed beside us and you know held by somebody who loved them all of the time and my daughter lay in this little tiny isolette and looked so small and so fragile and I felt really helpless and all I could do was I knew if I got good milk supply up and she could drink the milk that she would be fine.  So,and one of the challenges I was in a small rural I mean our in rural hospital or regional hospital where there wasn't a lot of space the nursery was pretty small there was two comfy chairs for the seven beds and the rest of the chairs were just upright chairs and I'd had an emergency caesarean so sitting in those chairs wasn't very comfy, and if you were traveling from say Swan Hill or another rural area to come they tried to keep those chairs for the mums who were traveling long distances to sit with their babies so I was often ushered out of the nursery back to my room to make space which meant I didn't get to spend that time close with my daughter that I wanted and I really struggled with it. 

Jennifer- Every night I would lie in my bed crying when I could hear other babies cry and know I couldn't hear my baby crying I couldn't respond to her needs I really struggled with it. 

[Jessica] yeah it's like having an urge that you can’t 

[Jennifer] yeah I couldn't scratch it, it was really, really difficult and so all I could do was make milk. 

[Jessica] yep 

[Jennifer] and so many women when they're separated from their babies struggle to make milk and turns out I don't 

[Jessica] yep 

[Jennifer] I was expressing three early and within 36 hours my milk was in 

[Jessica] yep 

[Jennifer] um by the time she was three days old I was expressing such a large amount that they were not telling me it was too much but shipping it home with my husband to fill the freezer up because I was filling the nursery freezer. I think I was making around about two and a half to three litres a day 

[Jessica] wow 

[Jennifer] which is way more than we're supposed to and I wish somebody had told me because when we finally did come home my baby did not know what to do with all that milk and I didn't come home with a pump because I'd left the hospital so she had a drip in for a few days didn't ever need oxygen but then it helped to keep warm and was in the nursery who for seven days she didn't really ever lose very much weight, she lost I think maybe 50 grams in total she's maintained her weight the whole time.  Very quickly started gaining weight again and as soon as she was looking more robust about day seven they roomed her in with me and then we went home the next day.  So once, once she was eight days old she was home which was great, um but the challenge was then that I had this massive milk supply, no pumpbecause I didn't need one, and a baby who struggled and that's when I first sought a bit of help from the Breastfeeding Association to help me manage this ridiculously large supplythat my baby actually didn't need. 

[Jessica] yeah.  So when did you realise that you were struggling? 

[Jennifer] so I don't think, it was a long time so I the big thing when you've got a tiny baby is there's numbers people want your baby to get to three kilos before they'll stop doing this and then three and a half kilos to wake really often for feeding and being monitored very closely and I found all of that really stressful, worrying about the numbers even though there was plenty of milk and she was growing, I found myself feeling very anxious every appointment that there was, that the number wasn't going to be enough and that somebody was going to say she she has to go back to hospital or you're not doing enough.  But I don't think I was aware of how stressed I was, it was just like my everything was trying to get this baby to this point where nobody was worrying anymore including me and I think what happened is that never I never really stopped worrying.  Other people did but then I almost sought out the same monitoring because I was struggling to relax, so I think she was around about four months she was feeding well and she was she was never a big sleeper but she was sleeping for sort of three hour blocks at night and feeding sort of two hourly during the day and fairly settled happy baby and I was not sleeping.  I was finding myself very stressed and one of the things for me was that I realised I was, I wasn't able to do anything else. I was able to be the mum my kids needed so I was able to attend to my son and play with him, took a lot of effort but I would play and I really enjoyed his interaction and I really enjoyed feeding my daughter and it was one of the things, the one thing I was actually succeeding at which may not be the case for other mums with postnatal depression but for me it was the one thing I was doing well.  But I wasn't able to make a decision about what food to eat or what food to cut up for my son I wasn't able to decide which clothes to wash. I couldn't go shopping because the decision making process was so overwhelming and nothing else gave me joy but my children.  So I was never happy except when I was doing things with my children, I felt I didn't feel sad I just felt completely numb, I had no sense of joy. 

[Jennifer] And one day I think I was sitting up and the Breastfeeding Association used to have a 24 hour forum and I was chatting on one of the forums and somebody else talkedabout feeling numb being their symptoms of depression and not feeling anything and I went oh.  So I went online and did a little screener in the middle of the night and you know scored quite highly on the Edinburgh postnatal depression scale that's available, and that the doctor health professionals use and so my husband worked the next morning I handed it to him I said I think I need some help. 

[Jessica] and had you done the screening throughout your daughter's sort of early life like that seems to be now quite common 

[Jennifer] I think it was checked with me at some point earlier on but I don't think the score was very high because I think it was more like I was responding to the situation and I thought I was otherwise and I think I was managing well I think it just went on too long and I hit a wall maybe and then I struggled.  And I think I presented as coping quite well, because I was masking it because I was a professional woman who knew what answers people needed I wasn't trying to hide I just wasn't even honest with myself about how hard it was until suddenly I realised.  So I'm sure it was done but I hadn't done it with a health professional for a little while like several months and when I did it, it was like I don't know what the score was but it was it was high enough that it said you know this is quite a significant score and so I told my partner and he took the next day off and we arranged for me to see someone as soon as possible for a checkup. 

[Jessica] yeah as I find that when I speak to mums who are coming up to that visit with their maternal child health nurse that I always tell them make sure you're brutally honest when you fill out that questionnaire or when you go through that screening with the nurse because they're there to support you because I've heard from so many people that they go to fill out that that score and they'll either lie or they will lie to themselves. 

[Jennifer] yeah and I think probably it was the second for me I just don't think I was aware how much I was struggling.  What then happened was that I was seeing my normal doctor, we were pregnant at the same time so she was on maternity leave as well so I saw a different doctor that I didn't know very well who offered to support me until I could get back to see my normal doctor and the first conversation that was had was medication and the challenge for me was because my baby had been small, I was very nervous about her growth even though she was now thriving, fully breastfed and always had been it was now putting on weight and starting to have some little little chubbiness, she never got super super chubby because she just started off so slender but she was looking more robust and the first conversation was that they thought that I might need some anti depressant because of where my score was but the medication they like to use sometimes make, suppresses babies appetite a bit, and so I just said no. I just said no, I said I can't do that, so I decided to use counselling and I linked in with a counsellor through the local health service who they were to help me so I was speaking to somebody weekly I was seeing my, we went back to the health nurse so she was able to see me fortnightly and then when my GP came, I was able to see my regular GP again,I was seeing her fortnightly so I was seeing someone twice a week. I was seeing my GP one week and then the nurse the next week and then my GP and then the nurse and I also see mycounsellor and that was for about three months. 

[Jennifer] and at the three month mark I was sicker, I was struggling more, my mood hadn't lifted any the counselling was ineffective because I couldn't do the therapy work that I needed to because I was just feeling so numb and I was, I mean I never got to a point where I felt hopeless but I could see it was getting worse and my partner was very worried about me and so were the health professionals.  And I was so lucky the Breastfeeding Association, I joined the local group and started going along and I was, you know really enjoying the social aspect and learning about breastfeeding and somebody said you know there's a specialist help line you can ring, or there’s a specialist service you can ring to find out about medication and I sowish I'd known that earlier because I made the call and spoke to one of the specialist pharmacists in Victoria which is where I am, and they were able to tell me that actually the risk for that medication is highest in the first three months and that generally babies appetitesafter that aren't affected and often it's not even that long.  And if I'd known that I think I might have trusted the idea of having medication, I might have made a decision to try it a bit earlier.  Once I started at seven months it took, we went up gradually and it took until I was around my daughter was about 10 months before I started feeling more clarity and when she was 12 months old I felt on myself again. 

[Jessica] yep 

[Jennifer] I continued with the counselling regularly the appointments with the GP and thematernal and child health nurse were able to space out as I became more well again but I think they just kept an eye on me for that bit longer just because and because they were monitoring my daughter's weight in case it had an impact so that support was critical, it really was.  But I so wish I'd known about calling a specialist help line for those that medication information. 

[Jessica] yeah and even there's really very few medications that are actually contraindicated for breastfeeding completely and even when there are there's usually a safe alternative. 

[Jennifer] but even just with this medication knowing that the risk of the appetite issue was particularly there in the first couple of months and that as babies got older it tended not to be an issue, if I'd known that I might have made a different call at that three three and a half mark when they started talking about medication.  I'm not upset with myself I responded to what I knew but I think I would have come out of it more quickly and it wouldn't have been such a long journey.  Really I wasn't myself the first out of the first 12 months probably the first, it's probably eight or nine months of my daughter's life maybe even 10 and also for my son's fourth year the same thing that I was not who I wanted to be and I was the most responsive mum I could be but it wasn't the same as what I think I'd liked, I would have liked it to have been.  We didn't do a lot of things that I would had done with my first because I just didn't have the energy. 

[Jessica] so it sounds like you got a lot of support from your health professional team as well as you know specialist help line to speak to pharmacists who specialised in lactation and medications as well as your local ABA group, what was the most helpful thing that anyone around you did to support you? 

[Jennifer] so I think the most helpful thing, I think there's two one is that my partner who was the strongest person I know during this I don't think I would have survived without some real challenges for me and the kids if he hadn't have been as amazing as he was, is that he worked out how hard it was for me to make decisions when I was really struggling and so once a fortnight we sat through the struggle of that and we made a meal plan for the fortnight and then he made a shopping list that was like detailed down to how many things we want of toilet paper so I didn't have to make any decisions if I did go shopping he would do theshopping as well but you know it made it easier for me as I got a bit better to be able to do it without having too many decisions made they were to make they were already made.  The meals were made, as the meals, meals were chosen. I could swap the meals - that was an easy thing to do I don't feel like that tonight I'm supposed to pasta tonight I don’t feel like that, I think we'll have the chicken - I could swap them but I didn't have to decide what we were going to do so he did that and he also in the very early days when we were really struggling he used to make a lunch box for me and my son so I didn't have to choose food I didn't have to go and look in the fridge and I don't know what to feed you little man there was a lunch box and that was a godsend because my son could go and get our lunch boxes and we would sit and eat them together and there would be like a snack and a sandwich or something else and he could put them back in the fridge, he was three he could open the fridge put them in and take them out again, he didn't do anything else but that that was a gift of taking away some of the decision making and that made such a difference to feeling like I was able to function as the mum I needed to be and meet my son's needs. 

[Jennifer] As far as nutrition, my daughter just needed milk in those early days and meet my needs so I could meet hers and it was fun my son loved getting our lunch boxes out and my husband would put some fun things in there he put like Lego men or he'd put like just little cute things in there or stickers for my son to do whatever and it just it was it was every day he did that.  And the other thing, so that was that was the that was a really big thing the other thing that happened that really did make a difference was that we were part of a church community and I struggled to tell anyone but my partner invited the ministers wife over to visit and said to me I think you need to tell someone.  We need some support.  And so I did let her know and she'd been through it herself so her response was we'll help you.  So twice a week somebody else turned up with a meal that was hot and ready with dessert a snack for my son for the next day and offered to hold my daughter while I went to the toilet and washed my face and hands and freshen myself up and then made me a cup of tea and we sat and had a cuppa and then they'd leave.  They didn't stay for anything else and if I didn't feel like a cuppa they would leave - but it was literally somebody turning up with this parcel of love for our family. 

[Jennifer] In those early days when that was really hard and then like it was obvious that many people knew, nobody said anything it was no big deal but as I started feeling better,people would just say I'm here and I see you.  So that my community were there for me I think that could have happened if I'd had lots of family and friends around but we were new to the area I just had my parents so that, that became the equivalent of that for us and that was a gift that I can never repay.  Because I knew I was accepted and cared for without having to tell all of those other people anything, nobody asked, nobody needed to know anything more than Jennifer’s struggling after the birth of her little baby and they knew she was little, so this was a little way down the track, they’d offered us support when she was first born, they did it for everybody, but this was like it just came back.  And those gifts were like the greatest things that happened for us. 

[Jennifer] But I have to say I was very privileged I also lived in a little community with a lot of elderly women so I lived in a little area where a lot of women had retired and it was a little like a set of units and we were the only young people in the unit and they were two women in their 80s who were delighted to have children and when we played with our son in the area they would love it and so when I was struggling with my daughter and with my postnataldepression, they would take turns to check in on me and see if I needed anything, bring my paper in and say would you mind if your son came and watched play school at my place today I'm feeling a bit lonely.  They offered me support without ever asking how much I was struggling, just seeing it, then we never spoke about it, they were just there.  I wish everybody had a village of women who are retired and, and wanting to be part of the life of awoman with a new baby because I have to say they would turn up and say let me watch the baby, let me watch your son while you're, you go and have a quick shower and I'd come back and they would have done the dishes and folded a basket of washing like they were just this these but I don't know like fairy godmothers and again. I think the world saw how much I was struggling but nobody needed me to explain it. 

[Jessica] yeah yeah I often think that other mothers and parents who have been there in the same situation are the most valuable resource that we can have as new parents because just to be seen and understood makes such a huge difference. 

[Jennifer] it was absolutely true but I think it was also true that none of them needed me to say anything more . 

[Jessica] yeah. 

[Jennifer] You know sometimes when you're struggling, you don't want to explain why and how and how hard it is and even ‘what do you need from me’ that was the hardest thing anyone could have asked me and people did ‘I want to help you, how can I help you’ I don't know I can't even decide what sandwich to have today I can't tell you how you can help me but what happened was enough women and even my mom when she was working but when she was available they just did what they thought I needed and it was enough.  It was, it was a time I don't I don't ever want to do it again. I learn a lot and my partner I probably becamemuch stronger because of it, our communication about emotional needs changed we'd never had an issue like that before so that was critical and really helpful when you know other people in our lives are struggling, we had a bit of a language about how we could support people.  But I guess the big thing is that I did get better it did improve, the light at the end of the tunnel as I started to come back out of that depression and started finding moments of joy and enjoying things was so reassuring and when my daughter was about 12 months of age she wasn't walking yet she was a very happy to sit on her bottom and play and crawl after her brother but had no real desire to walk and didn't walk until she was, you know 15 16 months something like that maybe 17, was a while but she was very happy to climb up on my lap and I remember she was bringing me things she would crawl off and bring me things again and at one point I found it so absurd, so funny that she was bringing me everything she could find that I started laughing out loud in giggling.  Almost, almost like I when I was a kid and you start giggling and you can't stop it was just the funniest thing because when she saw I was laughing then she thought this was the best thing ever I was engaging with her I mean always had, but in a more sort of raucous and outward way so she just kept bringing me the most ridiculous things like a sock and you know I found a tag and what's this like I had all thesethings on my lap that were like you know kids find lots of things you know things that she shouldn't have been able to find on the floor like the empty packet of some you know all the tablets are popped out but it's come out of the bin she was getting things from everywhere she could find – my handbag, behind the sofa, under the sofa, she was bringing me pieces of leaves, everything she could find and then coming and putting in my lap and waiting for me to laugh or show her delight and then get me more and I suddenly went ah we're back I'm back. 

[Jessica] I’m me again 

[Jennifer] I'm enjoying this, I'm I'm much more me and yeah it was like I don't know it was almost like I realized the cloud had been lifting for so long I hadn't noticed but it had lifted and I could see, I could see the colour of the world again. 

[Jessica] So what advice do you have for other people? 

[Jennifer] I think I certainly had already had conversations I had had some challenges when I think university and stuff feeling a bit flat and down so I knew that there was a risk factor for anyone who's had a bit of a past history I'd never been particularly unwell but you know I've certainly found moving out of home a bit of a challenge when I was a young student.  So I was watching myself I watched myself with my first and you know that my partner and I if you've ever worried about me get you know you've got my permission to book an appointment and take me to at least get a checkup and I'm really glad we had those conversations ‘if you're worried about me, get me some help’ because when I brought that piece of paper to him and said this is I'm struggling, he didn't need me to tell him what I needed.  He, we'd already had that conversation when I was well, when I was well enough to say if I'm really struggling I give you permission to book an appointment for a doctor for me and to come with me and sit with me and help me say what I need to say because I don't think I'll be able to say it if I'm unwell.  And that was really, really important to have had the conversation with the people around me that I had risk factors and to know what they are youknow it's a history of depression or anxiety maybe a history of trauma or of it struggling withadjustment, knowing that you know or even you know just getting really stressed at particular times, knowing that you might have a bigger risk I mean one in like far seven to eight women experience postnatal depression and I mean you know I think it's about me like one in 10 to 12 men can experience postnatal depression or anxiety. 

[Jessica] And those are just the people who we know about. 

[Jennifer] That's right.  So I knew there was a risk and I'm really glad I had that conversation so I would say be open, if you know that the people around you that you trust tell them this and you know if you're ever worried about me let me know, and I think the other thing is it's okay to need help.  It's okay to seek that help, and it's okay to ask questions I still wish I'd ask more questions about the medication and sort out more information because while I hoped at the time medication wasn't something that was necessary for me and that I'd be able to do it without it the reality was is that I was probably already unwell enough that it was unlikely for me and in hindsight that phone call could have been made so much earlier and even if it had been just a little bit longer before I started it I think that the avoidance of the medication to protect my little one who'd been unwell actually made it worse for me.  I think the other thing I would say to people is - know that you're not alone.  This is, it is challenging to experience postnatal depression or anxiety particularly when you're supposed to enjoy this this is you know it's something you might have often been looking forward to for a long time and even if it looks exactly like you expected and it's supposed to be going great you can be feeling awful and that you don't have to feel that way.  That you can get help and that you're not alone and that many people have been there too and I think that was the other thing when other people said oh yeah it's tough I was there once too, and that happened a few times I've never really talked in lots of detail with anyone else about this before other than my counsellors but I've disclosed to other people in the past oh yeah had postnatal depression in the past and when I say to a woman who's struggling when I'm supporting them as a friend or a family member I know you're really struggling at the moment, I'm here. I don't share my story but I might let them know I've, I've been in a similar place and I'm happy to support you with whatever you need and I think that's it's important to know you're not alone.  And to not try and do it on your own. 

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[Jessica] Yeah yeah, I think that's really fantastic advice and I think it's really quite inspiring to see and hear you that you do go out and you use your experience to support other people in your community as well and just you know and I think it is just that important just letting people know that they're not alone because it's something that's so stigmatised because as you said we've got this expectation of women and new parents that this is supposed to be the most magical time of your life.  You are supposed to be this one thing and if that's not how things are feeling for you that can … 

[Jennifer] Yeah you can feel like you're failing. 

[Jessica] Yeah and that's on top of already feeling you know a bit of a spiral … 

[Jennifer] It's really awful 

[Jessica] Yeah 

[Jennifer] So yeah it's important to know you're not alone. 

[Jessica] Well thank you so much for sharing your story with me today and I hope that a lot other people listening to this podcast hearing your story will know now that they're not alone and that's another thing that you've done to reach out through our podcast to let people know that it's okay to speak about and speak up and ask for help. 

[Jessica] If you do need help you can check the links in our show notes so we'll have some information in there about where you can find help and support if you're experiencing postnatal depression there'll also be some other information in there about where you can find information about medications in your local area.  If you're in a position to support the work that ABA does financially you can become a member by visiting breastfeeding.asn.au and that will link you in with your local group as well.  If you want to speak with the breastfeeding counsellor you can call the national breastfeeding helpline on 1800 686 268 so that's open 24 hours a day every day of the year.  Our live chat service is another option and you can check the website to see when that's open.  Thank you all for listening, we'd love it if you can rate, review and subscribe to the breastfeeding with ABA podcast wherever you're listening.